No control, no data, churn of people: why tax needs technology

Lightly edited for readability.

Ruben [00:00]: Not in control of the process. No data, churn of people, always a gap basically to what needed to be done and what was actually there.

Ramon [00:14]: Welcome everybody. My name is Ramon van Aarle. Welcome at this third episode of the Brothers in Tax podcast. Ruben, welcome.

Ruben [00:25]: Hello, my name is Ruben, and together we are Brothers in Tax,

Ramon [00:28]: Brothers in Tax. We're back again. We're back again. Well welcome again. We're gonna tell you today what's happening with technology and our business endeavours. And boy did, we had a quite nice ride for the last 25 years, right?

Ruben [00:43]: Absolutely.

Ramon [00:43]: So the landscape of tax is changing rapidly, and we just took a big jump to go all in on tax technology. That's what we're gonna, but can you take us back to the start of s Yeah, just, and we discussed a little bit on the,

Ruben [01:02]: In the previous episode,

Ramon [01:03]: Previous, but

Ruben [01:04]: Correct, yeah. Back in 2017. Right. So, yeah, we saw the, this client case we got actually 50% paid for it and 50% was our own investment, right to see whether we could build something, which would last. But we also saw basically with friends who were running IT companies that technology and it was taking over some of the work which was done by, or people or Excel and other formats basically. And just to make life easier and more.

Ramon [01:48]: Yeah, but you that that's true. But you more in control, but you still could stay at Taxperience. True. And we had IT tooling back then and just fueled Taxperience with more IT and live happily ever, ever. But you didn't,

Ruben [02:01]: I think we did that a little bit there, of course, also. But perhaps the, again, a little bit too much entrepreneurship in our genes and had to do a little bit the fade in, fade out. Basically out of Taxperience more into Keeyns, into the IT part of it. Perhaps we also wanted to do something different with our knowledge, right? We had also this interim company, so we seconded a lot of people a lot of tax directors, a lot of tax managers with large multinationals, and in the end we always heard the same thing things, right? Not in control of the process. No data, churn of people.

Ramon [02:47]: That's true.

Ruben [02:47]: People left. People were sick. Yeah. People were on maternity leave. Always a gap basically to what needed to be done and what was actually there.

Ramon [02:59]: Yeah. And the market wasn't really fighting that problem back then, right?

Ruben [03:03]: Not at all. So it's basically advisory firms are built on hourly rates, right? Yeah. So, the more hours the better it is.

Ramon [03:09]: Yeah. So was it scary to fuel the technology part s more during the tax periods days while it's a little bit of cannibalism, right?

Ruben [03:21]: Yeah, yeah. You know, the discussions we had at the partner group, right? So, not everyone was always all in on the IT part and on the IT investments we had had to make. I think we also highly underestimated, how much work it in the end was and how to build again, a company a tax technology company, yeah. Compared to basically what we knew already building an advisory firm.

Ramon [03:50]: Yeah, that's true. No, no, that's true. You have to have a solid backbone, right? You have to create a platform you have to make lasagna instead of spaghetti. Yeah. That's what we all always learn from Yoong and still today. So that was, yeah, no, that was and is very interesting. Ride. And can you take us back on the part when we more or less decided to go all in on build building out Keeyns?

Ruben [04:17]: I think that was. Let's say two and a half, three years ago. Right. We saw already a small shift. We got more clients people like the product. We're still a little bit scared to buy it from us, right? Yeah. So Brothers in Tax, but yeah. What if they stop with their IT and probably I have a problem, right? Because, if they, if we wouldn't fund it anymore, what ha what's going to happen with my data?

Ramon [04:49]: That's true.

Ruben [04:50]: So that together basically with the wish of the partner group of Taxperience to, yeah, we knew we had to contribute more investments to the company in order to grow it, right? The on the product, but also on the marketing side. So we decided to go for external capital. Yeah, yeah. So then I think that was really the shift that we said, okay, we kind of step out more or less out of the advisory role, and then more and more into the technology role and start to build this IT company.

Ramon [05:31]: Yeah, that's true. That and that, and that took quite some time. I had to find the we have two great investors at Keeyns today. Right. But that, I think that took us nine months, maybe,

Ruben [05:41]: I think almost a year.

Ramon [05:42]: A year maybe. Yeah. And then the negotiation, due diligence.

Ruben [05:45]: Yeah. We know the drill, right?

Ramon [05:48]: So we

Ruben [05:49]: Not easy.

Ramon [05:50]: No, that was not easy. And if you look back at the product, can you pinpoint a year or, when it was really suitable for the clients? Because we had the discussions back then. Yeah. But they say, no, we need this, and that was that. Or is that difficult to say?

Ruben [06:09]: I think what at the. In the previous episode, we also mentioned that don't wait for the ready Ferrari. Right. So, but perhaps we launched really early, and the expectation of the buyer group was much more than we actually could deliver, right? So I think actually when the investment investors came in 2 and a half years ago, the product was really an MVP, a minimum viable product. Where let's say we get, yeah, enough enthusiasm from the buyer group, from the tax departments to start to use it. And if you see how it was back then compared to what it is today, of course it's a huge change.

Ramon [07:02]: Well, there's a huge difference here. But that's so different than the tax advisory practice, right? Absolutely. So people have a problem. You are a tax lawyer, you have a meeting, you solve

Ruben [07:13]: Yeah. You solve a problem,

Ramon [07:14]: You solve a problem,

Ruben [07:15]: Send an invoice.

Ramon [07:16]: You send an invoice, and they have another problem next month, right? Instead of making software from scratch. And then the, basically the clients decide when your product is market ready, right? Yeah. So there was

Ruben [07:29]: Absolutely that, that's nice that you mentioned that Indeed, because it's not us who decide whether the product is good enough. It, it's the client who decides whether they buy or not buy, and that says something, whether the product is good enough or not good enough. Yeah. And I very often compare it as, you know, with, let's say LinkedIn 20 years ago or 25 years ago,

Ramon [07:53]: Looked horrible back then. Yeah. Sorry for LinkedIn, but yeah,

Ruben [07:56]: And look today, right? It, so, it's, extremely powerful platform. But of course it looks totally different today compared to 20 years ago.

Ramon [08:08]: Yeah, I like that reference. But we still used it 20 years ago and it worked rightly, and it's absolutely, but they build it out and now it's basically your, it's your business library, right? If you have to catch somebody, probably LinkedIn will be the best, yeah, that's a good one. So you have to be persistent in your way of working, building out a software company, because we never did, right?

Ruben [08:30]: No, we never did. But of course, we saw with clients, with friends who had, let's say software companies who had SaaS companies, how it actually could work, right? So we had an idea, but then every industry again is different. And then of course we had to face basically the lengthy sales cycle, right? Yeah. Of an enterprise software solution. And we did not have any experience with that, right? No. So it's

Ramon [09:01]: No, but we're bid new

Ruben [09:02]: Ball game.

Ramon [09:02]: We're building that out. False for years now. Absolutely. Yeah. And if you compare your previous lives, right? So being a tax lawyer working with Big Four, then building out Taxperience, and if you have to compare that with running a SaaS company, a software company, what are the Yeah. Key takeaways? What can you tell the audience?

Ruben [09:28]: I think it's a totally different ball game. So in an advisory company everyone is, let's say 80% is advisor talk, have the same background, same study, same way of thinking or expertise, right? It's true. Yeah. If you look at Taxperience. So also discussions are very often very technical about tax itself and not per se, on how you run a company. Well, let's say with Keeyns, it's totally different ball game as, yeah, we need marketing, we're doing a podcast, right? Who never did it before. Never did it before. So who would have thought about that? We need market. So in marketing team, we have, UX people. We have front-end and back-end developers, AI developers,

Ramon [10:24]: Customer success,

Ruben [10:25]: Customer success. We have finance people,

Ramon [10:28]: Management team

Ruben [10:28]: Salespeople. Then we're

Ramon [10:31]: 10 nationalities,

Ruben [10:32]: 10 nationalities, five countries. So it's we have, yeah, different kind of now problems, I wouldn't say, but let's say

Ramon [10:44]: Challenges.

Ruben [10:45]: Challenges,

Ramon [10:46]: Discussions,

Ruben [10:46]: Discussions. But I like it. It's also learning again in a new business where we have, let's say 25 years Brothers in Tax, right. So we do have a lot of knowledge about tax, but we use our knowledge in a different manner building out a different company. That's I really like that. I truly enjoy it.

Ramon [11:10]: Yeah, me too. Me too. No, but it's totally different. I fully agree. So, what, what's e what's easier building out Taxperience or building out Keeyns? Yeah,

Ruben [11:20]: That's a very difficult question as well. I think in the end, let's say scaling a service company, an advisory company it's taking longer. It's easier to get clients, right?

Ramon [11:36]: Yeah. Small task. Do it invoice. Yeah.

Ruben [11:41]: So, you're very soon in the money. And let's say with Keeyns, it, it's a much longer journey than I think both of us expected. But I think the growth scenario, because once we have a client and we have a happy customer, they stay, we get word-of-mouth advertising. Yeah. We get more clients,

Ramon [12:06]: More users,

Ruben [12:07]: More users. So in the end, I think the recurring model of a SaaS company obviously is is nice, but it takes much longer to build.

Ramon [12:19]: Yeah. And can you see, if you look at, because we have clients all over the world, is there a difference in the buying group or the talks or the, so if you compare a Middle East with Europe and with the US do you see any differences or is it because tax covers is a world worldwide thing, right?

Ruben [12:41]: Right. Yeah. It's now we see that, let's say the 50% of our pipeline is US. So there is apparently a high adoption in the US of IT solutions. Perhaps a little bit more open-minded for it. Question mark. Of course, in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, we say because it's own Ed, Texas relatively new. So our story is there too. Yeah. Why would you do what we did in Europe? Yeah. And us, right? Don't

Ramon [13:11]: Use Excel. Right? Don't use Excel. We have it over 40 years. But you might as well can,

Ruben [13:15]: And you can also skip that, right? They don't have landlines in Africa. They have only mobiles, right? So they pay with mobiles. There are no ATMs or not as many as we are used to. So why would you do exactly the same if technology is already there? And then I must say in Europe, it's now also shifting. We get more and more, if we go to the. The events, the seminars. Yeah. More and more willingness to adopt. It,

Ramon [13:47]: Yeah. That's I think you and me touched on upon that on the previous episode, but the, I think really starting January 1st, 2026, somebody pushed a button. Right. 'cause people are more, more willing to look into it. It's really, really exciting and don't know really what's happening.

Ruben [14:07]: They have to do something. They have to do something and what is then the question mark? Yeah. So the, but we also see it, right? So the landscape is getting bigger and bigger of tax technology solutions.

Ramon [14:19]: No. Yeah. I mean, I agree. You feel it at the summits as well, right? If you look two years back our first summit, I think was in Berlin. If you compare that to the last one in Frankfurt. Totally different. So,

Ruben [14:34]: And as you know, we tried in pra in the beginning Yeah. In beginning for years, our story. And then it was 90% was about jurisprudence Yeah. And new legislation in countries Yeah. And kind of tax schemes. Yeah. And now we go to these summits and it's, I would say 50

Ramon [14:51]: 50.

Ruben [14:52]: Yeah. At least.

Ramon [14:53]: Yeah. It's 50-50. That's interesting. So then let's look into the future. So if we have, we, we've seen this change in only two years. What will happen in the next let's say 20 years? What do you think?

Ruben [15:07]: Yeah. I think tax without technology is unthinkable anymore. I think a lot of the admin work, what tax advisors are doing. Also the tax advisors, we always employ the tax experience. I think 60, 70% of the work going into file, take for information, search for it, make an analysis out of it. Basically, this is past history, right. So the resources will be used differently. Yeah. I think there are also less people at in tech. So it's good to risk technology.

Ramon [15:46]: Yeah. We need it.

Ruben [15:47]: There's gonna be, yeah. Huge change. I foresee the coming years also tax authorities. Right. So, just as a fun fact perhaps, I believe four or five years ago they had eight tax advisors in UAE. Today they have 800. And they foresee 5,000 within the next two years. Wow. So, that says something about, let's say the region adopting atex, but also those people have to do something and they use a lot of AI. They use a lot of technology. So probably a lot of tax questionnaires, tax audits are generated just by AI. If you're a company and you want to counter those questions only with human hours, spending a lot of time, not the libraries anymore, but perhaps behind a laptop. Perhaps you need technology also to counter the questions from the authorities. Because they will generate just these questions.

Ramon [17:03]: Yeah, for sure. But there still will be Big Four and advisory firms and there still will be tax teams

Ruben [17:10]: 100%

Ramon [17:10]: Internally, right?

Ruben [17:11]: 100% for sure.

Ramon [17:12]: Yeah. Why do you think so? Because can AI have the discussion on tax with the CFO and the CEO?

Ruben [17:18]: Well. We think not yet. Right. So it's I believe, Microsoft is calling that ASI, artificial super intelligence. So that's basically weighing what a human being is doing and what is good, what is bad, what is possible, what is not possible. So this kind of weighing will still be done, I think by, by the advisors, but also by the in-house tax people. Right. Who for sure, who have, let's say, the feeling with the business and know better what can and needs to be done.

Ramon [17:53]: Yeah, that's true. Well, it's maybe the comparison with a plane, right? The plane can fly itself. Right? We still want one or two people in the cockpit. Right, maybe that's also what's gonna happen if it goes sour.

Ruben [18:06]: At least someone can

Ramon [18:07]: Steer it, right? Yeah, someone can steer it. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But how do the juniors fresh from a university become seniors, right? Because if AI can do the heavy lifting what we did before in the library 25 years ago, how do you,

Ruben [18:27]: So probably the pyramid model of the Big Four is, perhaps a little bit out outdated today. And we go more to a lawyer model where there is a very senior partner with two or three people to educate them. So, if you're fresh from university, you do need, let's say, to get the experience, but where do you get it? Right? So, yeah, you need to read a lot. You need to see a lot also for in-house people. So you need to gather somewhere your experience and yeah. I'm curious to see, how that will go the coming years.

Ramon [19:04]: Yeah, me too. So there will be a large change at the advisory firms and maybe at also at the internal tax departments by, and hopefully people will get more open, and open to include tax technology and tooling in their day-to-day work.

Ruben [19:24]: I think they have to, right? They have to. So. There are companies who are not willing to pay anymore for people with less than five years' experience. Yeah. Because AI is doing their jobs. So, I think advisory companies are, let's say, in-house tax departments who don't adopt. They will fall behind and in the end they kill their own business. So yeah,

Ramon [19:47]: Very interesting to see what we're gonna experience for the coming decades. But we live today.

Ruben [19:54]: We live today, right.

Ramon [19:55]: And time is precious. So it's already the end of this episode. I really want to thank you Ruben for very fast again. Very fast. Again, get it faster. Faster. Right.

Ruben [20:04]: Unbelievable. Okay.

Ramon [20:06]: Well thank you very much. My name was Ramon and I'll see you on the next episode.

Ruben [20:11]: Thank you very much, Ramon. My name was Ruben. Thank you listeners for listening to us and

Ramon [20:17]: See you next time.

Ruben [20:17]: See you next time.

Ramon [20:19]: Ciao.

Ruben [20:19]: Thank you. Bye.

Ramon [20:20]: Before we end call to action to our viewers and listeners. Please let us know what you want Ruben and myself to discuss on the next episode, and we will do it.